Give me an update on The pre-sale.

hamiltinohamiltino Member Posts: 6
To help me manage my investment funds, I need to know if the pre-sale will happen Q3 2014 or 2015?

Which is more likely? I am investing my money in other projects at the moment and will start saving up for the pre-sale around August.



  • DoneDealDoneDeal Member Posts: 4
    I am in the same boat, where I find myself digging into my savings as well, while waiting to invest here.
  • StephanTualStephanTual London, EnglandMember, Moderator Posts: 1,282 mod
    Hey guys, the presale is still not announced - at least no one can blame us for being greedy following almost 6 months of continued development :)

    I'm afraid I'm not in a position to give you any deadline, but stay assured it's our #1 priority to get it underway as soon as possible. It can however, tell you it won't be 2015.
  • zawyzawy Member Posts: 26
    edited July 2014
    There should not be a buy-in, or otherwise enabling wealth-without-work like bitcoin and banksters, at least not hard-coded into the project. I would think coins should be something made possible inside of ethereum as a type of contract, without specific oversight from Ethereum, other than allowing a protocol general enough for the creation of coins. An ideal coin would tie together a set of contracts that people agree to join. That is, it should be citizens joining a legal system with goal(s) directed at a macro level by the way the coin is issued and valued, and the trading of the coin during contract execution would be the micro marketplace transactions. Ideally, to reset society to be more fair on a global level DAO, everyone should get the same quantity of coin when they join, and it never should change value. They then work to gain coin at other's expense, but the system would benefit everyone more and more if the coin is pegged to a basket of commodities divided by the number of people who have access to those commodities. This would encourage more commodities and depopulation and therefore improved living standards on a global scale. In other words, more coin is issued to everyone if commodity quantity goes up and population goes down. It has to be on a global scale because overpopulated miserable countries will always work to replace underpopulated relaxed countries.

    I do not know if coin generation for a set of contracts needs to be address at the Ethereum protocol level or not. I am not sure a coin is "just another contract" that can be made possible simply by making Ethereum code Turing complete. It is the glue between all contracts in a specific system of contracts, which enables that system to achieve a macro "profit" goal by selfish micro transactions who seek mutual profit rather than system-wide profit.
  • zawyzawy Member Posts: 26
    edited July 2014
    What is the current thinking on how the coin will be issued? Is it a closed discussion?

    Contrary to my previous post, the node support needs to be based on transaction fees or share dilution aka money printing aka mining aka inflation, which means there needs to be a coin that is different than the other coins it enables (that I referenced above), and it would be good if the ethereum support team is financially supported by the same method. The nodes and programmers can be viewed as a standard engineering control feedback loop like an economy and its government, although it enables sub-"economies" (sub-system feedback loops, or sub-coins). Coins are the control signal the feedback system uses, aka "price signal" in von Mises terminology, or computing resource distribution in A.I. The programmers are the "government" that designs the macro-level capabilities and goals of the "economy" of nodes, with everyone interaction through the coin signals. The nodes would be "taxed" to get good work out of the programmers (aka bureaucrats without the negative connotation) to keep the transactions going good and expand the transaction quantity (transaction increase is an increase in the "GDP" of the network). The end-users would be the source of raw materials (energy and materials turned into operating computers) for this economy. But the core programmers may also choose to work for the end-users, who may also be "taxed" such as through coin issuance (taxed via "stock" dilution, aka money-printing) if not direct taxation of some sort such as taking a portion of the nodes' transaction fees. The nodes with then be viewed as companies in the economy where the government only taxes companies instead of individuals. All this assumes ethereum will not go the route I suggest as a possibility.

    What I suggested is that human happiness might be a direct and fundamental goal of ethereum, contrary to it being agnostic to all it enables. At first, I do not see this as possible because I am the only one I know of who is thinking about these things. To take the view that making it powerful is inherently good for humanity is to believe in an unseen and undefined God who cares about human happiness and longevity. This is like working on nuclear technology without thought for the consequences. Thorium reactors seem like a fantastic idea and yet they were never made, and yet we're flooded with nuclear waste and bombs. Working for money to improve humanity through a faith in creating betters tools everyone can use is normal human morality. But it is not clear to me that life is better for the Western world since the invention of the transistor, even with the fall of the USSR, all the cheap labor coming from Asia, and commodities from South America and Africa. It feels good to be powerful, but enables laziness in thought, especially in the intelligent, and it corrupts morality.
    Post edited by zawy on
  • JasperJasper Eindhoven, the NetherlandsMember Posts: 514 ✭✭✭
    @zawy i do tend to agree that some things seemed a little closed. There are an awful amount of channels; skype, the IRC(quiet), slack channels, the issues, the forum and blogs. I think some more activity on the forum/blogs is probably a good thing.(not aimed at Vitalik, obviously :) ) Should be clear that we're not setting things in stone/are not going to be 100% correct with such things..

    That said, what you're talking about does seem a little distant from the actual thing being developed, and i dont see anything on how it will actually work. We can only develop tools and cultures that may be good for human life, we cannot develop 'good for human life' itself.

    An UBIcoin, is an idea, btw. Basically the idea is that there is some way to measure that people dont get multiple accounts, and basically, it is promoted as a 'charity with backstop' on one end, i.e. sharing that is actually sharing, but that doesnt allow for randomly wasting peoples' time. and UBI at the other. Getting it to work out economically is an open problem, a system can of course issue new coins for the UBI easily, but it thins out the supply, and an UBI coin worth nothing isnt very useful.
  • zawyzawy Member Posts: 26
    edited July 2014
    The "basic income for everyone" is a new idea for me, discounting that society's infrastructure such as all the "free" things (roads, education, some health, etc) are a type of income. I like the idea since the individual gets to decide where to spend which can be a more accurate form of intelligence in society. Obviously you can't print without taxation, or the printing needs to expand to keep constant value in terms of a basket of commodities or something more advanced such as my "happiness per median person". As you seem to be aware, the UBIcoin (like "basic income for everyone") automatically achieves a flattening of wealth and therefore probably my "happiness per median person" assuming the excess coins are from taxing the excessively wealthy. Contrary to current popular belief, there *is* such a thing as excessively wealthy since no single person through excess genius, hard work, or morality can *fairly* obtain more than something like $100 million in their life unless you place the intelligent solving of problems (like Steve Jobs's skills) on an aggressive exponential scale in valuing their business I.Q. Either way, they can't effectively spend that much to improve their family's lifestyle on anything but an aggressive logarithmic scale. An exception is if they re-invest the money since their unique intelligence is needed to direct society's actions, provided laws ensure their investments are providing a net good for society (Microsoft being a monopoly disaster for the world via their hyper aggression and lack of imagination or foresight, enabled only by society's desperate need for a standard platform). It is society that makes mostly lucky and overly aggressive individuals and companies (Microsoft) excessively wealthy, not their skills or hard work. ("mostly" and "overly" being defined so as to make the previous sentence tautologically true, since intelligence, hard work, niceness, good for society, and zero luck often make for a very wealthy and generally successful person).

    Most of my comments are for what should be built with Ethereum, not how ethereum should be designed. As my last post said, there seems to be a need for a specific coin for ethereum. The only idea I have that is actually implementable (unlike my pie-in-sky comments about happiness per person) is that it should have these properties:

    1) tied to a basket of commodities via M of M exchange SPOT values (not ETF's or indexes that use montly roll-over contracts which lose 8% per year relative to spot value...get out of commodity ETF's while you can)
    2) support miners, coders, and possibly early adoopters
    3) not overly support 2). To the extent miners and coders are greedy, they should be shunned. The overtly excess success of Ethereum should support Ethereum and society, not those riding a wave of a new technology that other's developed over the past 100 years.

    So if the currency use (transactions) increases, more coin would have to be generated in order to keep constant value in the contracts. The contracts inside Ethereum like wages and prices are not valid over time if they are based on an Ethereum coin without a tie to the external world. I bet Ethereum people are not really thinking about this. I do not have a suggestion for what to do with the excess coin that would be needed to keep constant value. Possibly not in advertising or marketing the coin. I am against all forms of charity, even as I believe in taxing the excessively wealthy and flattening the wealth distribution.
  • zawyzawy Member Posts: 26
    edited July 2014
    To clarify 2 of my obscurities:

    "Obviously you can't print without taxation"...without causing inflation. Previously I said inflation might be good if it can function in the same way debt erasure has always worked. But it certainly would have been better for the housing market to crash and let the banks go belly up from the debt erasure of all the borrowers unable to pay. Loans to those unable to pay are a bad investment and should be punished like any other investment. Instead, we have seen a massive printing of money to buy toxic assets (treasuries and MBS's) off the banks to protect them, with none of it going to main street, so there has not been much inflation since 2008. But this will quickly turn around and the inflation will be apparent as interest rates go up (profit for banks). Already stocks and bonds are seeing inflation, and the housing bubble is basically back to 2007 levels. In other words, it will be a harmful inflation instead of a needed debt erasure. Now imagine a Ethereum world where none of that debt can be erased, nor inflated away. The rich maintain most of their wealth except for a house glut that kills their collateral value, the poor remain indebted. Those who took no house loan and bought when it was high simply lose out from bad luck which might be viewed as a bad investment decision. This can reduce population and thereby prevent biosphere destruction. So taking a hard line on money is not all bad. It's capitalistic and not the way democracy has been doing it.

    "[the wealthy] can't effectively spend that much to improve their family's lifestyle [or otherwise use it to improve society and therefore a progressive tax scale is good] ... An exception is if they re-invest the money"

    Concerning commodity ETFs: except for SLV and GLD and maybe other precious metal ETFs, all the commodity ETF's I checked lost about per year over spot values for the past 5+ years. For some reason, not even Seeking Alpha articles mention this. Roger's and other indices are designed to lose value relative to spot by rolling over futures contracts, so if you compare ETFs to them, the ETFs look OK, but are terrible compared to spot value.

  • danschodanscho Member Posts: 1
    Well.. I'd just like to get back on the topic of when the Ether Coin will be up for auction / sell / investing in?
    Also, do we have any idea what the going price will be? Will it be $x.xx in dollars? Or a % ratio of BTC?
  • hamiltinohamiltino Member Posts: 6
    too much unrelated shit talk on here. Stick to the thread or make your own.
  • StephanTualStephanTual London, EnglandMember, Moderator Posts: 1,282 mod
    danscho said:

    Well.. I'd just like to get back on the topic of when the Ether Coin will be up for auction / sell / investing in?
    Also, do we have any idea what the going price will be? Will it be $x.xx in dollars? Or a % ratio of BTC?

    Pricing will be a number of ether per bitcoin, which will more rewarding at the begin of the presale than at the end (to reward early buyers).

    The price will be announced when the ether sale starts.
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