Why are miners scared of POS?

13

Comments

  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @dont12
    I don't have any capital, I am invoiced for my electric every 90 days. When i get the bill i have 2 weeks to see that it is paid. I have to make enough coin in 90 days to pay the power bill and turn a profit by the quarter end. The money we make buys food. When the mining is slack and profit is hard to make, we go hungry and eat only every other day or try stomach pet food. PoW is an important lifeline. PoS is no use to me.
    I am not in the position to hold my crypto coins, I have to use them to live off. If we get a good quarter i will buy up old or broke computer and server equipment and fix it up for mining.
    I mine with CPUs, GPUs, HHDs and ASICs. There are some real nice PoC algos out there at the mo for HHD mining, its so efficent.
  • dont12dont12 Member Posts: 60
    @greenuser, Where do you live?

    Yeah First world is intent on cutting most of the world out of Financial networks, on the pretext of stopping terrorism. Its interesting to me, that they claim to be so concerned about poverty but all there actions say, they could care less.
  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    dont12 said:

    @greenuser, Where do you live?

    Yeah First world is intent on cutting most of the world out of Financial networks, on the pretext of stopping terrorism. Its interesting to me, that they claim to be so concerned about poverty but all there actions say, they could care less.

    @dont12 i live in the UK. All the manufacturing dried up. Housing and transport are unaffordable for lots of people who work or not. Old people die from cold in winter. It can take 6 months to see a doctor, 2 years to see a dentist.
    So yes we want financial freedom and an end to austerity.

    We can live with terrorism, we don't worry about that sort of thing, it's not a problem. When I was a kid my mother would not let me into Town because the IRA were setting bombs in public places. We are friends with Northern Ireland now. Terrorism is transient, we will soon be friends again.

    As long as we get enough food to eat and somewhere dry to sleep and meaningful work so we have self respect we can live with anything. Getting hit by terrorists is a death lottery, Early death from cold and damp and poor diet, and poor access to health care is a certainty... it's just about how long it takes and how miserable it makes you.

    However, we will find a way.
  • vijaychaudhary09vijaychaudhary09 Member Posts: 1
    edited July 2016
    can anybody speculate when would POS come ? ( year ) ... any how difficulty would rise for miners with time ?
  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    G416G said:

    greenuser said:

    dont12 said:

    @greenuser, Where do you live?

    Yeah First world is intent on cutting most of the world out of Financial networks, on the pretext of stopping terrorism. Its interesting to me, that they claim to be so concerned about poverty but all there actions say, they could care less.

    @dont12 i live in the UK. All the manufacturing dried up. Housing and transport are unaffordable for lots of people who work or not. Old people die from cold in winter. It can take 6 months to see a doctor, 2 years to see a dentist.
    So yes we want financial freedom and an end to austerity.

    We can live with terrorism, we don't worry about that sort of thing, it's not a problem. When I was a kid my mother would not let me into Town because the IRA were setting bombs in public places. We are friends with Northern Ireland now. Terrorism is transient, we will soon be friends again.

    As long as we get enough food to eat and somewhere dry to sleep and meaningful work so we have self respect we can live with anything. Getting hit by terrorists is a death lottery, Early death from cold and damp and poor diet, and poor access to health care is a certainty... it's just about how long it takes and how miserable it makes you.

    However, we will find a way.
    Here this should cheer you up william_black_how_to_rob_a_bank_from_the_inside_that_is
    Thanks for the link @G416G but it is nothing i haven't seen. There is no sadness here... We are making history.... These are sacrifices you have to make when you are at war. The British know how to keep the home fires burning.

    After the 2008-9 financial crash i joined The Silver Liberation Army



    we took silver to $50 per ounce at Easter 2011 but just did not have enough people. We made money and ate well that year though. More people feel it now. We took our country out of europe, small steps, more people have joined the struggle now....

    can anybody speculate when would POS come ? ( year ) ... any how difficulty would rise for miners with time ?

    POS? you mean a fork? @vijaychaudhary09 Which chain?
    I'm guessing ETH around Jan 2017, ETC within the next 4 weeks.
    Difficulty will rise exponentially until. :)
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    I see the hashrate on ETC has fallen 50% in the last day. I guess people see that the wild speculation at the start isn't going to pay off for them like the people at the very start. Also, there is a lot of ETC to trade from the pre-fork for people that held ETH. Sure hope people didn't waste to much time, power and sweat on it.
  • dont12dont12 Member Posts: 60
    @greenuser Yeah all the surveillance et etc, is being done on the pretext of stopping terrorism, is probably bullshit, actually just want total control of everybody's life savings etc, to pay off the debt they have raked up bailing out the banks and looking for Weapons of Mass destruction. And its not aimed at the emerging markets at all. Sad to here that things in the UK are so bad. :'(
  • RabassoRabasso Member Posts: 151 ✭✭
    I'm sorry to say but things will get way worst. (in my humble opinion)

    There has to be a total breakdown on a global scale. Our governments have lost control, our systems have become impossible to control, at all levels, it seems globalization has become the weapon of choice giving corporations the ammunition they need to just keep obliterating society for the gain of few. We are all susceptible to a virus called greed and individualism, because we all want things, until we realized that things gives us nothing, on the other hand people do.

    Ethereum is the tool that society needs to get rid of all the fat that surround us, is the tool that will give control to its users, sure corporations are looking at it and saying OMG our business cases don't work anymore we have not reason to exist, we have to jump into that wagon to see how we profit, sadly is a bottom up solution that can't be harnessed by them, too big too slow, they can use it just to shave more jobs...Yes the robots are coming for your job too.

    The only way this will work is by decentralizing the network, and keeping corporations from taking control of the network, most of you are not doing that, are not helping the cause, most of you are doing the opposite — centralizing the network itself by mining on pools, concentrating the power on the pools, why.... well because is convenient, but for sure not as profitable as if you where doing it straight in the network.

    There will always be uses for the coins which gov can't follow, cash will be worthless, heck is worthless now because governments have destroyed it's value, we just haven't realized that.

    Solution is quite far away at this point but there is one

    Bottom up Change. Change starts with you. First thing first, food, then shelter, then help your neighbour secure that, then when you have a society that is self organize there is nothing that can break it. Use and harness the tool, create the tools, you are Goverment you are society you are what gives the meaning to all around you, make the reality and you be the change you want to see around you, create it. Don't wait for government to save you, they will send you to a fictitious war, because wars are economic engines, because wars help government focus society in a single threat.

    think about it. I want to hear what you think.
  • ozzz169ozzz169 Member Posts: 18
    Rabasso said:

    I'm sorry to say but things will get way worst. (in my humble opinion)

    There has to be a total breakdown on a global scale. Our governments have lost control, our systems have become impossible to control, at all levels, it seems globalization has become the weapon of choice giving corporations the ammunition they need to just keep obliterating society for the gain of few. We are all susceptible to a virus called greed and individualism, because we all want things, until we realized that things gives us nothing, on the other hand people do.

    Ethereum is the tool that society needs to get rid of all the fat that surround us, is the tool that will give control to its users, sure corporations are looking at it and saying OMG our business cases don't work anymore we have not reason to exist, we have to jump into that wagon to see how we profit, sadly is a bottom up solution that can't be harnessed by them, too big too slow, they can use it just to shave more jobs...Yes the robots are coming for your job too.

    The only way this will work is by decentralizing the network, and keeping corporations from taking control of the network, most of you are not doing that, are not helping the cause, most of you are doing the opposite — centralizing the network itself by mining on pools, concentrating the power on the pools, why.... well because is convenient, but for sure not as profitable as if you where doing it straight in the network.

    There will always be uses for the coins which gov can't follow, cash will be worthless, heck is worthless now because governments have destroyed it's value, we just haven't realized that.

    Solution is quite far away at this point but there is one

    Bottom up Change. Change starts with you. First thing first, food, then shelter, then help your neighbour secure that, then when you have a society that is self organize there is nothing that can break it. Use and harness the tool, create the tools, you are Goverment you are society you are what gives the meaning to all around you, make the reality and you be the change you want to see around you, create it. Don't wait for government to save you, they will send you to a fictitious war, because wars are economic engines, because wars help government focus society in a single threat.

    think about it. I want to hear what you think.

    +1 well said... pools are not all bad but you should join the small ones and try to limit the big ones size, I use only ones with a few percent of the size... also demanding voting rights of pool is good, and if not leave if they dont do things you agree with. its very easy to change pools and dont be afraid to do so. also, your very right about the solution is to stop using they banksters systems, and get off their slavery grid. I hope that ethereum or something else can be make it possible to start a community big enough to get out of the banks and live without their system.

    I think the developers are very greedy trying to go to pure pos model as this only benefits them really as they are big stake holders. us little guys give the most value to the network though. you cut out 1000's of miners your only a network of rich guys controlling the system... um sounds like a bank to me, printing money for yourselves only. I hope if they go to POS then etc can take up the mantle and enough people switch to it to keep it going, and leave the eth developers to pos among themselves, and can have their coin and all the little guys will pick another one.. and hopefully they can just dwindle all their money away and get punished for their greed, cause in the end there are lots of coins out there and we miners tend to be much more cleaver then they think and can adapt and change to systems that is best at the goal of decentralization, stability/security, and functionality.

    With that said there should be constant threat of POS on the horizon to prevent asic from taking over. as that will cause a centralization (the whole thing we are trying to avoid with blockchain, the heart of the issue).
  • techtottechtot Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭
    True or False ? (My Guess)
    * The coins we are "making" now, will be used in the POS phase. (T)?
    * Mining will cease @ POS, but our coins will hold value - as no more can be made (T)?
    * The coins you have/mined may go up in value as "stakers" or anyone else who wants them will buy them(T)?

    If these are all true, then I don't see the problem. There are plenty of other coins to mine besides ethereum with our equipment, and we actually may sell what coins we have saved for a higher value, as no more ether can be made in POS.

    Of course someone will probably kill my dream and tell me I am wrong.
  • un4givenun4given Member Posts: 172 ✭✭
    techtot said:

    True or False ? (My Guess)
    * The coins we are "making" now, will be used in the POS phase. (T)?
    * Mining will cease @ POS, but our coins will hold value - as no more can be made (T)?
    * The coins you have/mined may go up in value as "stakers" or anyone else who wants them will buy them(T)?

    If these are all true, then I don't see the problem. There are plenty of other coins to mine besides ethereum with our equipment, and we actually may sell what coins we have saved for a higher value, as no more ether can be made in POS.

    Of course someone will probably kill my dream and tell me I am wrong.

    from what i understood the coins still will be made, but with stack. Meaning the ETH holders can mine in pools and will get rewarded in the round in % based on their ETH amount they are holding. meaning you will be rewarded for holding ETH, because transaction still need to be verified, but the verfication process wont go over miner but over stack. Maybe i am wrong too, but its my understanding.

    @miningwithrigs there will 4 sure be another GPU minable coin, so i would sell all the hardware, but keep some rigs, or 1 at least i you had your ROI
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    edited October 2016
    techtot said:

    True or False ? (My Guess)
    * The coins we are "making" now, will be used in the POS phase. (T)?
    * Mining will cease @ POS, but our coins will hold value - as no more can be made (T)?
    * The coins you have/mined may go up in value as "stakers" or anyone else who wants them will buy them(T)?

    If these are all true, then I don't see the problem. There are plenty of other coins to mine besides ethereum with our equipment, and we actually may sell what coins we have saved for a higher value, as no more ether can be made in POS.

    Of course someone will probably kill my dream and tell me I am wrong.

    1&2. From what I understand now they are attempting to move away from the 250 validators and open it up more. The POS client would create a 'virtual miner'. POW will probably not stop instantly but rewards will vanish quickly as difficulty and block creation time increases. You would be using your mined coins to stake and bet on the successful blocks. There is however a strong incentive to have good hardware and connectivity for POS.
    3. Pure speculation on my part right now, but people will want to purchase more coins to meet the minimum stake level. Whatever this minimum stake might be. The last I heard it was 1250 ETH but this was with 250 validators.
  • SWDude26SWDude26 Member Posts: 132 ✭✭
    I saw a post on Reddit (need to follow up with sources) that it would be 8000 validators and minimum 32 ETH.
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    You are right about the 8000! That is exciting. Validators are chosen at random every 12 hours.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/5256ht/ethereum_20_mauve_paper/
  • miner001miner001 Member Posts: 49
    As a newbie, is the purpose of validators to validate transactions? Can any miners or any person now with 32 ETH be validators? Do you need special equipment to be a validator? Why do you want to be a validator and how are you compensated?

    @DividesByZero why is it exciting?
  • Kazansky22Kazansky22 Member Posts: 2

    work said:

    The Ethereum roadmap has always suggested there will be many network upgrades, or hard-forks.

    If the pools don't upgrade when PoS comes around, then nobody will care. Anybody still mining will simply be wasting their effort because nobody but the miners will accept that chain.

    Who cares what a road map says? Sounds like developers at a PM meeting. If I simply state that "no miners, pools or exchanges" would accept the POS fork would that not pose a problem POS? Are you telling anyone with less than $18K USD to fuck off and get several Antminer S9s instead?
    /0
    Not much to add to the PoS debate, as I'm still trying to learn myself. But I can say that trying to get ahold of s9's is ridiculously hard, especially when trying to get them in numbers.
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    miner001 said:

    As a newbie, is the purpose of validators to validate transactions? Can any miners or any person now with 32 ETH be validators? Do you need special equipment to be a validator? Why do you want to be a validator and how are you compensated?

    @DividesByZero why is it exciting?

    When you generate the block you process the transactions as well as everyone else importing the block. The way the paper is worded everyone can be a validator but there would only be 8000 elected based on 100 shards. This is exciting because before it was limited to 250 validators starting at with a minimum of 1250 ETH. Your chances of being a validator in the lottery is based on stake size.
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58

    work said:

    The Ethereum roadmap has always suggested there will be many network upgrades, or hard-forks.

    If the pools don't upgrade when PoS comes around, then nobody will care. Anybody still mining will simply be wasting their effort because nobody but the miners will accept that chain.

    Who cares what a road map says? Sounds like developers at a PM meeting. If I simply state that "no miners, pools or exchanges" would accept the POS fork would that not pose a problem POS? Are you telling anyone with less than $18K USD to fuck off and get several Antminer S9s instead?
    /0
    Not much to add to the PoS debate, as I'm still trying to learn myself. But I can say that trying to get ahold of s9's is ridiculously hard, especially when trying to get them in numbers.
    I haven't tired. I get weary of wiring money to China...
  • miner001miner001 Member Posts: 49

    miner001 said:

    As a newbie, is the purpose of validators to validate transactions? Can any miners or any person now with 32 ETH be validators? Do you need special equipment to be a validator? Why do you want to be a validator and how are you compensated?

    @DividesByZero why is it exciting?

    When you generate the block you process the transactions as well as everyone else importing the block. The way the paper is worded everyone can be a validator but there would only be 8000 elected based on 100 shards. This is exciting because before it was limited to 250 validators starting at with a minimum of 1250 ETH. Your chances of being a validator in the lottery is based on stake size.
    @DividesByZero So now that there will be 8000 validators, what does that mean to new miners? Should they start investing money into buying mining rigs or is it too late to mine since PoS is going to sometime next year?
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    miner001 said:

    miner001 said:

    As a newbie, is the purpose of validators to validate transactions? Can any miners or any person now with 32 ETH be validators? Do you need special equipment to be a validator? Why do you want to be a validator and how are you compensated?

    @DividesByZero why is it exciting?

    When you generate the block you process the transactions as well as everyone else importing the block. The way the paper is worded everyone can be a validator but there would only be 8000 elected based on 100 shards. This is exciting because before it was limited to 250 validators starting at with a minimum of 1250 ETH. Your chances of being a validator in the lottery is based on stake size.
    @DividesByZero So now that there will be 8000 validators, what does that mean to new miners? Should they start investing money into buying mining rigs or is it too late to mine since PoS is going to sometime next year?
    It looks like POW will still mint its own blocks. Will they remove the difficulty bomb I don't know. I would guess no. So if you loaded up on GPU we would be looking at mining Monero, Dash. One problem though is Monero is crashing hard right now.
  • coolrascoolras Member Posts: 22
    I'm a noob miner. I'm thinking about investing a nice chunk of savings into purchasing mining rigs. Do you think it's too late to get into this business of mining because of POS or is there still a chance? What would you recommend as experienced miners?
  • DividesByZeroDividesByZero Member Posts: 58
    edited October 2016
    coolras said:

    I'm a noob miner. I'm thinking about investing a nice chunk of savings into purchasing mining rigs. Do you think it's too late to get into this business of mining because of POS or is there still a chance? What would you recommend as experienced miners?

    I would say that it might be a little late to get your ROI back. But it all depends. Mine now, hold the ETH for 5 years and it might be worth $500 instead of $13.50. All speculation.
  • SWDude26SWDude26 Member Posts: 132 ✭✭
    coolras said:

    I'm a noob miner. I'm thinking about investing a nice chunk of savings into purchasing mining rigs. Do you think it's too late to get into this business of mining because of POS or is there still a chance? What would you recommend as experienced miners?

    1 suggestions. Build a rig full of 1070s. Mine the shit out of ether under linux/windows 7 then when POS hits switch to mining LBRY.

    You won't hit ROI most likely right away with Ethereum, but you've built up some ether and then can hold it while mining away at LBRY. Which Pascals are dominating right now. ~300 Mh/s on my 1070 profiting $50/month after electric costs. And if LBRY takes off, then you've got 2 solid investments.
  • mjaaaymjaaay Member Posts: 97
    SWDude26 said:

    coolras said:

    I'm a noob miner. I'm thinking about investing a nice chunk of savings into purchasing mining rigs. Do you think it's too late to get into this business of mining because of POS or is there still a chance? What would you recommend as experienced miners?

    1 suggestions. Build a rig full of 1070s. Mine the shit out of ether under linux/windows 7 then when POS hits switch to mining LBRY.

    You won't hit ROI most likely right away with Ethereum, but you've built up some ether and then can hold it while mining away at LBRY. Which Pascals are dominating right now. ~300 Mh/s on my 1070 profiting $50/month after electric costs. And if LBRY takes off, then you've got 2 solid investments.
    You do realize the entire ETH networking power will run off to any coins that are remotely profitable, all 80TH+ power?
  • newmznewmz AustraliaMember Posts: 299 ✭✭✭
    coolras said:

    I'm a noob miner. I'm thinking about investing a nice chunk of savings into purchasing mining rigs. Do you think it's too late to get into this business of mining because of POS or is there still a chance? What would you recommend as experienced miners?

    I think that with POS and especially with the rapid difficulty increase lately, if you are interested in investing in Ethereum because you think it has a good future potential, you are far better off just using your money to buy ETH and hold it, rather than to buy hardware and try to mine it now. That is definitely what I would do, and in fact I have been spending any spare money lately (which isn't very much) on buying extra ETH and also DASH, and holding them in the hope that their price will increase in future.

    I know many people don't want to hear this because mining ETH is such a cool thing to get interested in, but I honestly think it's too late. Unless (maybe) if you have free or very cheap electricity, and very cheap hardware.
  • coolrascoolras Member Posts: 22
    Everyone made some great points. I'm kind of a gambler and think I will give mining a shot. I really wish the developers would announce when POS would hit. That would help tremendously! I've read 2 things. It's unstable to have 6 cards per rig and all other coins besides BTC and ETH are worthless. What you guys think?
  • rawmeenrawmeen Member Posts: 79
    @coolras if you're a gambler, your odds to make ROI are very bad so maybe you shouldn't be gambling :) ... not trying to discourage you however, mining is a pretty cool hobby and if you've never done it, it will not only entertain you but will force you to be a lot more active on different forums and learn more about cryptos. So if the money is not a big deal, go for it and you will be happy with the knowledge acquired down the road. As for other coins being worthless, you might want to look into dual mining using claymore. BOL
  • Sequoia93Sequoia93 Member Posts: 130
    @rawmeen @coolras If you expect Eth to rise significantly, ROI will be hit easily. But it is a gamble! And there are many other profitable coins to mine... I just don't expect any of them to rise in value, and profits are small.
  • vgmvgm Member Posts: 56
    @coolras It's perfectly stable to have 6 cards per rig, one of my 6x480 rigs has been mining non-stop for months now.

    As for the ROI, I don't really expect any of my new rigs (2 months old) to even break even at this point. The rise in difficulty has not been matched at all by a rise in ETH price. ETH hit $13 US on March 12, 2016 when difficulty averaged 19.655 TH. Right now the price of ETH is $12.77 US and difficulty is at 86.38 TH. If you do the math, profitability has dropped over 77% in that time period. This appears to be only getting worse as more and more people plow into mining. This could be exacerbated by the supply/demand imbalance, where by more people are selling ETH (miners) than buying ETH (speculators). Because, let's face facts: The only people buying ETH at this point are speculators.
  • rawmeenrawmeen Member Posts: 79
    @Sequoia93 of course, but buying Ether instead of investing in mining equipments is also gambling and if the price does go up, you will make more had you invested directly into Ether instead of the gears. So as a gambling move, buying equipments is not the smartest when you have the other option.
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