How is everyone going to vote with the hard fork?

rdnkjdirdnkjdi ✭✭Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
edited June 2016 in Mining
I've been thinking a lot about this (perhaps I'm being irrational).

1 - I lost a lot of money (sold half, kept half of my DAO).
2 - Miners deserve to have the best possible outcome as they are the ones securing the chain and the only ones able to do anything about this.
3 - Only three entities can immediately benefit from the three different choices.

.) The hacker - gets all his Eth, dumps on the market, things go to shit.
.) The original buyer gets back their Eth, dump on the market, things go to shit.
.) The hardfork locks the funds to take 15% of Eth off the market. As a general rule bad contract writing should not be bailed out. I understand "bailing out" when the entire ecosystem needs to be saved. I don't understand rewarding both those like me who chose a risky investment or those who wrote the risky investment to begin with. It makes more sense to reward miners and Eth holders.

4 - Does anyone know if there will be two plans for the hardfork? One to lock the funds & one to return the funds? I feel like it's an option worth having. At this point since the miners are doing the work of retrieving rogue funds I feel like they should be distributed to miners since the DAO writers lost them. Doubt that will happen.



P.S. Before you hate - I was all about returning to the DAO hodlers of which I'm one until recently after spending enough time deliberating

Comments

  • SmokyishSmokyish ✭✭ Member Posts: 203 ✭✭
    You also seem to be confusing the difference between a hard- and a soft-fork.
    https://forum.ethereum.org/discussion/comment/45450/#Comment_45450

    So far there have been a couple of proposals:
    https://github.com/ethcore/parity/pull/1483/commits/fd9d10a0957dd6548a62f3f8b0bb1a9a794c7187
    https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/pull/2757

    And as for that argument that if theDAO ETH's are returned, things will go to shit because of dumping, here's another view: afaik many, if not most, who invested into theDAO are long-term ethereum supporters, investors and holders, thus is likely that only a minority of those returned ETH's will be dumped. Both of these arguments are speculative and as such, you can't be sure of the outcome, if you have some strong evidence that shows that your argument is a certainty, i would love to see that.
  • greenusergreenuser ✭✭ 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    It's about whether people inside and outside the community have any faith in ethereum. It's a real test for the strength of the coin. If eth is lost because of a fork (what ever the community agree on), there will be less in circulation. If eth is sound, it will have become more scarce, so it may become worth more. It will take a little time, but the price will adjust upwards.

    If a rescue package works, and people get their eth back from the Dao but, they decide this kind of investment is way too risky and sell to btc or fiat,... the price could crash.

    No one can see the future. But miners need to agree on a direction. That is the difficult bit. By the time you get conscious on a plan, the game has changed again and people question their decision.

    However: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

    FORK PARADOX!



  • Marvell9Marvell9 ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 593 ✭✭✭
  • greenusergreenuser ✭✭ 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    @dlehenky I'm flitting between mining eth at nanopool and mining feathercoin at Give-me-Coins depending on the daily price so i don't know if my vote counts because i cash-out every 3 days to btc.
    I am however willing to put a stake in the ground and say.....
    "I am happy with what you choose dlehenky. I believe you are knowledgeable enough to make a good informed choices for miners.... Whatever the outcome of your choice, whatever happens, i will not attribute blame to, or at you. I will live with the consequence"

    That said, we now have the beginning of a consensus. Anyone want to add or pledge an allegiance with dlehenky or any other long standing forum member? @Marvell9 ?
    @dlehenky are you willing to pledge a similar allegiance with @o0ragman0o ?

    Or are we gonna sit here still, like a rabbit in the car's headlights?
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o mod Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    greenuser said:


    That said, we now have the beginning of a consensus. Anyone want to add or pledge an allegiance with dlehenky or any other long standing forum member? @Marvell9 ?
    @dlehenky are you willing to pledge a similar allegiance with @o0ragman0o ?

    Say WAT? @greenuser I don't know what you mean by allegiances, people will run the HF client or not. And if their ether is suddenly invalid, then they'll run the other one.

    Soft fork is out. Hard fork is maybe but only if its can be shipped by the hacker's deadline AND only if it can be shown not to have side effects.



  • AbcedarianAbcedarian Member Posts: 76
    How do I even go about voting? I hold a small amount of eth and some dao.
    I agree with @dlehenky
    Please let me know what to and how to go about doing it.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o mod Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    @Abcedarian It will just be downloading and running a new client version.
  • MrYukonCMrYukonC ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 627 ✭✭✭
    dlehenky said:

    I'll be voting for whatever solution is going to get the job done, and the sooner the better. Hard fork, soft fork, or combo is fine with me. We need to put this whole thing to rest in a way that the public sees as indicative of Ethereum being safe and secure.

    @dlehenky @Marvell9 Same here.

    I will say this though regarding the assumption that DAO token holders will dump their ETH on the market if they get it back...

    I think them dumping is very unlikely. A few will, sure. But most of those who invested in TheDAO (remember, there were only 20k of them) knew up front that there likely wouldn't be any returns on that investment for possibly years.

    Those don't sound like panicky weak hands to me. I believe a large majority of those people will retain their ETH and it will either go back into cold storage and/or eventually be redirected into newer DAO's that come out over the coming months, years, etc.

    FYI, I was a DAO token holder (50k) and I sold 40k the first day they were available for trading due to security concerns and sold the remaining 10k the first day of the exploit. Thus, I no longer hold any DAO tokens.

    So, even though I no longer have any skin in the game and even took a small loss on my DAO tokens, I fully support recovering what I believe to be STOLEN funds to their rightful owners.

    I also believe that outsiders (mainstream investors + media) will view this extremely favorably. It doesn't take much to scare that crowd away forever, and letting a thief get away with $50+ million in stolen funds, when we had the means to recover them the whole time, will likely scare those mainstream investors away forever.
  • indytimindytim Member Posts: 123
    I have done little but read various discussions and watch interviews on this topic for the past week. I have now concluded that a hard fork is wrong. Ethereum trust is negatively impacted by a hard fork. It sets a bad precedent. Above all, the Ethereum community should not absorb the consequences of flawed system like the DAO. Ethereum is not the DAO, and I do not see why it must protect users of one of its applications. This is akin to Microsoft rolling back Windows 10 because someone hacked users' accounts in Quicken; regardless of the damage (and granted, holy smokes it's a lot of ether) it's not up to Microsoft to fix the problem. The problem is the app.
  • indytimindytim Member Posts: 123
    edited July 2016
    And I do not think the valuation of ETH should be a criterion of whether to fork or not. The test of this experiment is whether the guardians of it (that would be the community) have the balls the hold to its core principles. Trust in its relative immutability is paramount.
    Post edited by indytim on
  • shutfushutfu ✭✭ Member Posts: 320 ✭✭
    @indytim the flaw was in ethereum's code, solidarity, as far as i know.

    And also, if a hacker makes off with 10% of eth, ethereum is dead. 100%. It cannot recover from that.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o mod Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    edited July 2016
    indytim said:

    I have done little but read various discussions and watch interviews on this topic for the past week. I have now concluded that a hard fork is wrong. Ethereum trust is negatively impacted by a hard fork. It sets a bad precedent. Above all, the Ethereum community should not absorb the consequences of flawed system like the DAO. Ethereum is not the DAO, and I do not see why it must protect users of one of its applications. This is akin to Microsoft rolling back Windows 10 because someone hacked users' accounts in Quicken; regardless of the damage (and granted, holy smokes it's a lot of ether) it's not up to Microsoft to fix the problem. The problem is the app.

    Microsoft rolling back!? Yay, Windows 9 all the way!! ;)

    @indytim The biggest problem with not forking is that a hacker, who is holding 5% of ether supply and who has expressed malice against Ethereum and certain devs, is in an incredibly strong position to destroy the natural evolution of the entire platform. It can destroy any hope of POS and mean that all other future protocol developments have to deeply consider how they will be impacted by such a malicious centralized holding. That makes a complete farce of Ethereum's 'decentralization' principle and is the most important reason to fork regardless of what anyone thinks of theDAO or Slock.it.
    Post edited by o0ragman0o on
  • dlehenkydlehenky ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @o0ragman0o Amen! Or, what ^^ said. :)
  • indytimindytim Member Posts: 123
    edited July 2016
    @o0ragman0o fair point. I'm new to this - it's a complex ecosytem. Lots of potential in it obviously - I'd like to couple my own company's sw products to smart contracts. That would be interesting. But I'm wondering where the rollback call is in Solidity. Someone either dropped or never considered ACID. While it looks like much resoonsibility for the attack rests with the DAO principals, there are limitations in Ethereum/ Solidity tools and language design that left this vulnerability.
    Post edited by indytim on
  • TimboSliceTimboSlice ✭✭ Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    And what happens if the hacker dumps all his/her/their ETH and some big institutional investor comes along and buys all of it. The we just have a new hostage taker.
  • indytimindytim Member Posts: 123
    edited July 2016
    What happens when the next buggy contract siphons off another $10 mil? Another hard fork?. This fork is like the first drink to an alcoholic. Once you've done it, why not do it again?
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o mod Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    edited July 2016
    indytim said:

    @o0ragman0o fair point. I'm new to this - it's a complex ecosytem. Lots of potential in it obviously - I'd like to couple my own company's sw products to smart contracts. That would be interesting. But I'm wondering where the rollback call is in Solidity. Someone either droped or never considered ACID. While it looks like much resoonsibility for the attack rests with the DAO principals, there are limitations in Ethereum/ Solidity tools and language design that left this vulnerability.

    @indytim Imagine Ethereum's current state of maturity as a little kid who just got given his first bike. The training wheels come off and he went a cropper... banged up bad. With a hard fork, he's a bit scabbed up but still growing and getting back on his bike.

    The dev tools are still woeful for sure. Further development on Mix-ide has been scrapped in favor of Remix which has only just gone Alpha. The debugger is very broken so debugging contracts of any complexity (like the DAO) becomes (and has become) a nightmare. It's frustrating to say the least, but IMO not to be given up on by any means. The DAO hack has taught us a great many valuable things.

    Solidity isn't so bad... for a language that suppose to look like Javascript which was supposed to look like Java which was supposed to look like C++.... I don't really know what their problem is with it. Perhaps it needs to be more transactional, but fairly, it's relying on the EVM for that. I'm not sure what you mean by 'rollback call'. The 'thow' keyword throws any changes made to state.
  • indytimindytim Member Posts: 123


    Solidity isn't so bad... for a language that suppose to look like Javascript which was supposed to look like Java which was supposed to look like C++.... I don't really know what their problem is with it. Perhaps it needs to be more transactional, but fairly, it's relying on the EVM for that. I'm not sure what you mean by 'rollback call'. The 'thow' keyword throws any changes made to state.

    I do not see a way to bracket an entire set of statements and protect so it's all-or-nothing. Atomicity. For a system handling financial transactions, this seems fundamental. I have to assume that smart folks have already considered this, and that there are reasons that a full ACID capability was not implemented... But I wonder why not.

    The problem with throw is that it can execute at any time, and has no awareness of complex inter-related statements.
  • ethkitethkit Member Posts: 18
    I'd like to express my noob opinion, and have the experts explain the down side and how this could or not be implemented with this technology.

    1.) The 'property' was taken, every effort should be made to return the property. The concept of property is directly proportion to peoples freedom.
    2.) The ‘property’ should be held, and thief prosecuted either via traditional law enforcement or via the community.
    3.) Under no circumstance should the replacement of the property impact the property value of other members of the community. It should be returned, not refunded.
    4.) There should be a mechanism to freeze any stolen property, this will have positive long term effect and only build confidence that anyone can expect some protection, fraud prevention, and remediation.
    5.) I totally disagree that the onus of someone entering into a contract should have to actually read and vet out all the code in a contract…
    6.) Personally I see this issue of the stolen DAO property an opportunity that will create additional commerce in the Ethereum economy.

    This said, I'm too much of a noob to know how I should vote at this time based on my beliefs.
  • dlehenkydlehenky ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd vote for the hard fork in a heartbeat. We need to successfully put the whole DAO experience behind us and move on.
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