DAO Creation (formally Slock.it Token sale) has begun.

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  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    bbcoin said:

    I am very sceptical about The DAO for many reasons. Some of them are:

    Hmm, given that none of your statements are entirely accurate, it's not surprising you'd be skeptical by way of misunderstanding.
    - Terms say you waive all your rights. Basically they push the responsibility to the investor in case of failure.
    What do you mean by 'terms'? The only terms are what the code does and that is, you can vote on proposals in proportion to your holdings. You can collect rewards from projects you helped fund. You can sell your holding on the open market or you can remove your holding in a Split operation.

    Also, I've never heard of an investor that who wasn't at risk of their investment failing. So I don't know what your think is different there.
    - Vitalik presented during the last meetup in front of one of the DAO guys how you can invest 51% in the DAO and then vote as you like including creating a DAO saying 'take over all the money' and vote yes with 51%
    Maybe you didn't listen to the remedy for that which is the split mechanism itself which means you can pull your funds before a 51% attack can be finalised. That's the whole point of the split.
    - It's made to profit the Slock.it guys. As simple as that. They probably already have an agreement with the big guys to vote yes for their proposal. They get all the money and in return they only give 1% keeping the ownership of the company.
    No, the Slock.it guys will be making a loss on the hardware they develop... Sell it cheap in order to establish the market for the sharing network. The DAO will never have any ownership of the company Slock.it UG, and that's not the point of the DAO. The DAO will own the Sharing Network itself from which it is paid the fees of up to 5%.
    If we assume the current 30mln was invested by 300000 users buying $100 worth of tokens.

    It means even if Slock.it makes 1mln profit * 0.01 = 10000 / 300000 users and you get 3 cents.

    Shit deal if you ask me.
    You need to read over my comments to @Biodom regarding potential revenues...

    Oh and of course The DAO is based on ETH which means as soon as people stop buing ETH to get DAO tokens, price will fall which means You will lose part of your investment as soon as DAO opens it's doors.
    Unless of course you were smart and got in early before the 'very predictable' pump in ether value during the buy in.

    Not to mention that you can't control your investment like they say. As soon as majority of the community votes yes for something it takes a cut from your stash. To avoid you'd have to create your own DAO within DAO and hide your money in there. Basically you will be forced to praticipate in projects you don't want to unless you manage to hide your stash somehow.
    I don't know where you're getting 'DAO with a DAO' from. You can split which creates an entirely new DAO holding whatever of you funds remained in the first DAO. But what's the point, who are you going to fund then? You don't invest in something and then say "You're not allowed to spend my money!" do you?

    It's really not that hard a model to grasp. People invest. A majority vote decides what to do with that invested money and if you don't like it you can get out. At least you have a vote. Tell that to any conventional managed fund.

    All that said. There's room for improvement and other models are being worked on with more granulated powers to control your own funds. The DAO code in it's current form was indented to be simple and is essentially running to bootstrap the whole process. That code is up-gradable and will be upgraded as the DAO technology itself develops.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @o0ragman0o @dlehenky @bbcoin

    I really want to believe in DAO, but as soon as I hear DAO people talking, my belief wobbles.
    Why:

    1. obviously, DAO has much more money than slock.it envisioned. However, they should understand that this is OUR (DAO) money, not theirs.
    2. slock.it people keep talking about marketing expenses here:
    https://plus.google.com/events/ci0hvv75t1mncrvt8g2aotmaqeg
    EDIT: new url

    go to 6:22 (if you want to hear about marketing)
    youtu.be/weJXYCd9GsM?t=382
    first of all, proposal #1 was about BUILDING the ethereum computer/universal sharing network and not marketing. I would not rely on most coders marketing skills anyway.
    4. Therefore, DAO should not give slock.it funds for marketing; we can hire someone else in due time (when needed). Budgeting now for marketing is just crazy.
    5. EDIT: better sound in new version I could not understand half of what they were saying plus questions were cut short, laughed at, etc..
    6. they don't want to say how much they invested citing privacy. well, privacy does not work for company insiders-check out SEC rules. slock.it bunch has no clue about that. If you don't know how much of DAO they own collectively, accusations of self dealing will be inevitable IF they own a substantial amount. This is simple naiveté and inexperience, hopefully.
    7. two positives: a. i liked Christoph's positions and enthusiasm. b. DAO will be able to stake in POS (most likely)-this is huge.

    Bottom line: still not sure, but DAO staking in POS (at the very end of the 2hr presentation) is a positive.
    Post edited by Biodom on
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    @biodom. I get, 'This video has been removed by the user' :(
    1. I certainly don't expect that Slock.it will require or ask for anything near the amount of money raised and I've never seen them behave in a way indicating they assume the money is theirs.
    4. I totally agree that the marketing should be by an independent reputable marketing company hired by the DAO to work in partnership with Slock.it. The first proposal doesn't mention marketing because until the EC is ready for market, there'll be nothing to market in the first year at least.
    6. Pretty hard to speculate on individual holdings in crypto...but isn't intrinsic privacy the nice point of crypto? And don't you think that Slock.it employees owning DAO gives them incentive to strive for success in both relms? I think it's a good thing and the more they have in it the better.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    additionally, the proposal outlines 3 development scenarios (simple, better, best) depending upon money raised. Their minimum requirement was $500k so imaginably their 'best' requirements would still only need a few $m.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @o0ragman0o
    i updated my post ^^^ with a new link-this one works now.
    The sound quality is also better than before, so at least you can hear what they are saying.
    Personally, I don't like slock.it proposal, but DAO can split from it:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/4isjpm/i_want_to_invest_in_the_dao_but_not_slockit/
    Post edited by Biodom on
  • bbcoinbbcoin Member Posts: 377 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    dlehenky said:

    @bbcoin I could be wrong, but I don't believe the slock.it proposal actually gets voted on by the DAO until the funding is over; the DAO doesn't have to accept it as is.

    As far as rights go, what rights do you have if you buy stock in a company? The risk always seems to be with the investor, not those receiving the investment. Just sayin'.

    @dlehenky class action law suit to start with. Add right to vote and ownership of the company as an option for major investors.

    Pushing responsibility on the investor, getting every investor to agree not to sue them and refusing to answer a simple question 'how many tokens or do you hold any? Makes this very sketchy buisness to me.

    It's a like you'd ask Bill Gates if he holds any shares in Microsoft and he'd go 'It's not your buisness'.

    Usually creators do own a big stake and they do talk about it to the public because it makes them more credible in the eyes of investors. If there's a possibility where the creator does not believe in his/their own product then why would any other person do so?
  • CarsonCarson Member Posts: 10
    noob to this token concept and what I understand so far is
    DAO is a pool of money that available to invest in projects, ppl who hold tokens (investor/shareholder) have the power to vote in which project(s) to invest.

    and so far I only see two project proposals on daohub.org
    one is slock.it and the other one is Mobotiq (no written proposal available)

    so as an investor/shareholder, what do I get in return?
    price appreciation of DAO token, possible
    any dividends?

    appreciate if anyone can clue me in/correct my errors
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    @carson, you get reward tokens every time a project is funded and they track your investment and share of the returns. The big proposal is Slock.it's, I know nothing about the Mobotiq one but there are other EV startups that want to integrate into the Universal Sharing Network (USN) that Slock.it are developing. The DAO takes revenue from the USN and whatever other for profit proposals are presented.
  • GabrielWarrenGabrielWarren Member Posts: 3
    I am spending time learning about the DAO. I found this article insightful, mostly because it articulates the behaviour economics we are likely to experience going forward. I have DAO tokens but am getting into this with my eyes open: Hope + Scepticism
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    edited May 2016
    @gabrielwarren It's far better to learn about the DAO from reading their actual whitepaper and USN proposal instead of trying to understand it from some journo who likely has no idea themselves...

    That said, everything about ethereum is still experimental and high risk. But for the bold early adopter it's been paying off 1000 fold. DAO tokens will also likely pay at greater values than ether. But, if something goes catastrophically wrong with the platform then pop goes a billion dollar baby.
  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Sorry, but Fiat backed Derivatives are bad enough, now we have Crypto backed Derivatives?

    DAO forwards, futures, options and swaps, I bet Blythe Masters is pi**ing her nickers with excitment over the DAO. She sure made her money creating an instrument where you could bet on loans going bad.
    When the Federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac started she was sitting pretty for sure.

    Blythe Masters from JP Morgan invented "the Credit Default Swap" (CDS) back in 1994.
    The buyer of the CDS makes a series of payments (the CDS "fee" or "spread") to the seller and, in exchange, receives a payoff if the loan defaults.

    In the event of default the buyer of the CDS receives compensation (usually the face value of the loan), and the seller of the CDS takes possession of the defaulted loan. However, anyone can purchase a CDS, even buyers who do not hold the loan instrument and who have no direct insurable interest in the loan (these are called "naked" CDSs). If there are more CDS contracts outstanding than bonds in existence, a protocol exists to hold a credit event auction; the payment received is usually substantially less than the face value of the loan.
    Post edited by greenuser on
  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @Biodom the video you posted: when asked about the "legal" issues associated with the DAO, they shrug and say "we are not lawyers"
    Is ignorance now a defence in law?

    Also; stakeholder anonymity results in undisclosed conflict of interest.

    Its like banks. You can have your retail arm in mortgages and your investment arm in Credit Default Swaps. You lend to people who you know cannot pay you back but you don't care cos your insured. You collect the interest difference on the loans when you borrow at a lower rate than your customers and when it goes sour, you collect the insurance and the property. You resell the property to even more sub prime uneducated underclass and it starts all over again. Win Win!

    I thought the trend was moving in the direction of disclosure when it came to derivatives and financial products.

    It looks like Mr Cameron will be moving his ancestors wealth to the DOA in light of the Panama papers. They all got compensated for the Abolition of Slavery to the tune of....in today's terms ...40 per cent of the UK Treasury's annual spending budget. That money has been passed from generation to generation “anonymously” for nearly 200 years thanks to secret off-shure banks. No one in that family will ever need to work for a living again for another.... well if they invest a little here and there....at least another 200 years.

    These DAO people do not know who they are playing with. When the big banks get hold of this they will eat them alive.
    Advice for the 3 blokes in the video... get good Close Protection operatives around you.
    And... ask yourself this... Does your Mother know what you are doing from your bedroom?
  • greenusergreenuser 50.8862°N 4.5537°WMember Posts: 439 ✭✭
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    greenuser said:


    And... ask yourself this... Does your Mother know what you are doing from your bedroom?

    Well the interview was in their mother's house....so y'know...probably!
  • WitchmanWitchman Member Posts: 44
    R we going to be able to trade the tokens for ether or btc on, Poloniex instead of waiting the 45 days to spit back to ether?.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    @witchman The DAO tokens implement the Standard Token interface. Any token with that interface will be tradable on exchanges that implement it.

    I think Gatecoin was the first to announce they would trade it, but they got hacked. BTC Markets have also announced and you'd have to look at the other exchanges to see their plans.

    The issue to look out for is how each exchange implements their token trading. If they ask you to 'deposit' the tokens in an exchange account, then you may be giving up your DAO voting rights to the exchange which may potentially abuse that voting power, or prevent it from being used at all.
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