DAO Creation (formally Slock.it Token sale) has begun.

o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
The DAO created by Slock.it has now been launched by the community. Anyone can now buy DAO tokens for the next 28 days, following which Slock.it will put their proposal to the DAO for funding the development of the universal IoT network. The DAO has been launched by a community member, not by Slock.it themselves and this has been by design.

https://daohub.org/ has full instructions (Start Wizard will step you through) however the simplest way to buy DOA tokens is to simply sending eth from an account you have the private keys for,to the official DAO address:

0xBB9bc244D798123fDe783fCc1C72d3Bb8C189413

The Mist wallet makes this simple and can watch your DAO tokens as well as your ether accounts.

The Slock.it team have verified the code at that address and announced on their Slack that it is the official DAO address to which they will make their proposal once the token sale is finished.
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Comments

  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    I might buy some DAO tokens.
    However, the whole thing is immature premature at best.
    Why?
    the only way to basically interact with this is a beta software wallet (Mist) that requires that you carry the whole eth blockchain on your computer.
    So, I basically would put thousands of $$ via eth, then DAO on my computer and would have to maintain geth/Mist on it for perpetuity? i get it re backups, but someone might forget doing it, etc, etc.
    Post edited by Biodom on
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    Immature perhaps only because Ethereum is a still a growing beast, but not premature. So you run a node, that's kind of a reality of blockchain interaction, no? ...Until lite wallets are developed.

    Mist is only the GUI interface. If you really want you could run DAO functions from the CLI. :#
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    well, as you know, you don't need to run a node for mining and you can also mine to an exchange. Holding a significant sum in DAO tokens in the mist wallet for years on the computer that is prone to be infected does not sound too hot, but maybe I am too cautious.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @biodom So you'd prefer to hold all your eth in an exchange wallet to which you don't have private keys for???!!

    Buying into token funding like the DAO requires that you actually own the private keys else you're just buying tokens for the exchange. I can hardly imagine what you'd have against actually owning your own crypto coins especially ether which requires ownership if you're going to actully use it to do stuff
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @o0ragman0o
    of course not, re exchange wallet-that would be for exchange, then transferring out.
    I am not against holding my own keys, of course, but i don't have trust in my ability to secure them for a long term via current software. There are ways in bitcoinland to do it via hardware, paper, etc.

    Just today, i tried to transfer some eth from one account to another and got some gibberish answer in return. However that gibberish reminded me of something that happened before and I was able to do the transaction by adjusting the gas price somewhat.
    This example shows that eth has to be 10 times easier to use before many people will actually make DAO as their investment.

    Don't take it wrongly-I am all for their principles and will most likely buy into DAO, I just don't see them getting significant traction before at least some of these wrinkles are smoothed out.
  • WitchmanWitchman Member Posts: 44
    what do u get for tokens? Does it convert into shares?
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @Witchman The tokens are your voting power, they are tradable on the open market and they are used to lock in your rewards tokens when you fund a project. You can still get payouts through the rewards tokens even if you have sold off your tokens.
  • eireeire Member Posts: 43
    from an investment point of view is this worth it?
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @eire, considered in the long term I have great confidence, but we're not talking any returns for the first 2 years or more. The tokens can be traded like any other crypto, so there's a market to play until the DAO actually becomes profitable.
  • rismondorismondo Member Posts: 58
    What exactly is this dao, you say no profit in 2 years, but what it eth rises from 10 $ to 50 or more in 2 years, I get 0 profit from dao tokens but i get 5x profit with holding eth. Could you explain a bit more what this is and why its worth buying and why not. Thanks :)
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    @rismondo @o0ragman0o

    If ether is cash, then DAO is a share of company. DAO is supported by ether at 1:1 ratio before first investment, after that proportionally.
    Say, it invested 20% of all collected ether in one company, then per each 100 ethers YOU invested, you get 80 ethers and 20 reward tokens representing your investment. Reward tokens will be getting a revenue stream from companies, like quarterly dividends from companies like Apple.

    That said, one critical point which differs DAO from VC investments is that you will get only a revenue stream from companies (like slock.it), NOT ownership in them.
    This kind of sucks, and maybe will be voted down, I hope.
    the numbers for dividend stream are ridiculous as well.
    If we give DAO cash in form of ether and they will invest it in slock.it and this is the only VC money slock.it gets, then I just don't see why we are not entitled to a substantial ownership and NOT only small % (like 1% they were talking about) of the revenue stream.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @rismondo, The DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization) is an application upon the Ethereum platform.
    That application is in the form of an automated trust fund.
    The fund has members who can vote upon proposals made to it.
    Those proposals are typically going to be for profitable ventures which can return money to the DAO.
    Slock.it's proposal will be for funding to build a universal sharing network of devices such as smart locks.
    This network can then automate the hiring/sharing/accounting of practically any resource from bicycles to accommodation to energy sharing markets.
    The DAO receives 1% of all transaction from that network which could end up in the billions of dollars per year.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    @o0ragman0o

    OK, but here is my take: assuming that slock.it [probably] receives 100% of their funding from DAO. Why, then, DAO is entitled to only a measly 1% of their revenue stream and NO ownership of slock.it whatsoever?
    This just does not compute. When VCs put money into company at the early stage, they get significant ownership with 10-20% is not unheard of. To me, the situation is too skewed in fundee (slock.it) favor.
    Please elaborate why it is not so, in your opinion
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @biodom As I understand it, the original thinking by which the DAO was written, was one of more conventional shares offer but through Ethereium crowd funding, which is what Digix did. However, the more the DAO developed as code and concept, the more it was realised that the paradigm didn't fit any more. In particular having one 'Service Provider' (Slock.it) no longer made any sense. So Slock.it opened themselves up for direct competition for the funds by declaring complete independence from the DAO and allowing the DAO to fund whoever they want.

    This means that Slock.it now really have to prove themselves to the DAO or else the DAO can stop their funding and switch camps to some better option.

    The sharing network they're building is also going to be independent from themselves. They are developing the open source hardware/software to get it up and running and will be retaining 100% sales on the hardware. They expect to be copied and undercut by big manufacturers and this is good because that's what's going to massively grow the network. The network itself belongs to the DAO for ever more, the bigger the better.

    So as far as ownership of Slock.it itself, it doesn't really make sense because Slock.it will always be a fairly low assets company. Essentially they just need to be paid for the ongoing development work, by the DAO initially and by their own hardware sales once it comes to market.

    The DAO if free to chase any other revenue streams it wants. So it's not just 1% fee collection from the Universal Sharing Network, there are a number of other companies set to pitch for funds aswell, including an electric vehicle company.
  • ciprianptciprianpt Member Posts: 219 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Noob question maybe but... For example if i exchange 100 ETH to DAO and in about 2-3 months i want to exhange DAO to ETH is that possible and how can i do that?

    I found something in mist wallet but i am not sure if that is way to do it.. testing now!
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    The DAO tokens you purchase during the sale are listed on exchanges, just like ETH, and can be traded/converted, just like ETH.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    @dlehenky
    Not sure what is your opinion about the DAO, but i was taken aback considering how much risk the DAO has vs how little reward it will collect in the best circumstances. it looks more and more like a kickstarter to me, NOT a VC fund equivalent.
    DAO will own no part of slock.it or sharing network. It would be entitled to a small percentage of sharing network revenue (like 1%). So, basically DAO pays 100%, owns 0% and gets 1% of revenue.
    For those who might be interested in details, read @s8c posts on daohub forum.
    I might still invest some as a pure short-term speculation, but as far as business venture, this cannot work as currently stated, in my opinion
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    I put in 2eth just to follow the project, but I don't personally think it will work out very well.
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @Biodom First, the DAO isn't paying 100% of Slock.it's funding. Slock.it has already done a considerable amount of work toward reaching it's goals. The funding will certainly pay for a lot of the actual lock production, initially, but I think it's inaccurate to portray the DAO as a 100% funding source for Slock.it. Secondly, the DAO can renegotiate the 1% whenever they choose to do so; they are not locked into the 1% figure for eternity. Lastly, Slock.it created the entire DAO framework on Ethereum, open source. So without that effort from Slock.it, the DAO would not even exist. As with most things, this is not as clearcut as it may appear. I should also mention that Slock.it will not be sucking up all the funding raised in this initial DAO offering, so the DAO will be considering numerous proposals from other quarters that will provide addition income streams for the DAO, the terms of each be negotiated on a case by case basis.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @dlehenky @work
    1. Griff Green has stated that the amount of funding slock.it would need depends on how much money DAO will raise. It's basically your roof contractor wanting to know how much money you have in the bank before charging you for the roof.
    2. Define considerable in $$, please.
    3. Why, exactly, slock.it does not provide equity to DAO? the excuse that they have is that DAO cannot hold stock, but they created a middleman entity (DAO.link) specifically for linking physical (taxes, etc) world and ether, so i don't see why Dao.link cannot be used to hold equity, if needed.
    4. slock.it had written a bad proposal to DAO and this seems to be the consensus. some even call it shockingly bad.
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @Biodom I'm not either endorsing or criticizing the DAO or Slock.it. That's just the way it appears to me. You obviously see it differently, and you probably have spent more time than I have looking into it. I'm just an old miner, content with dealing with all that entails; my hands are full with what I have on my plate already. I'll leave it to you younger folks to figure out the DAO, et al.
  • BiodomBiodom Member Posts: 693 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @dlehenky
    Sorry, if i was a bit argumentative. I respect your opinion a lot.
    I always go for risky investments, which brought me both good successes and tremendous failures in that field. DAO both intrigues and puzzles me.
    However, after CSW debacle, I don't know what to think about crypto space anymore.
    Too many scammers and/or difficulty to establish clear intent.
    Maybe i am too involved in the space and have to divest.
    I am also a miner since 2013 (bitcoin), so probably a bit less experience that you might have, but I have been through some ups and downs.
  • imar2016imar2016 Member Posts: 1
    I see alot of references to being able to trade tokens on an exchange. Im not a complete noob, but noobish however im confused as to how this would work. How would i transfer Tokens onto an exchange from my wallet ? I know how to transfer Eth, but cant wrap my head around the token. Im only watching the token in my mist wallet, do i NEED to watch the contract as well to do this token transfer ? The tokens are on the blockchain not inside my wallet right ? So how would i transfer my particular tokens onto the exchange. Any help would be greatly appreciated
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @Biodom I should clarify :) I'm old. I mine. I'm not an "old miner". I got involved in Ethereum last fall, and it is my first and only mining effort. I did toy with BTC last summer, just going through the process of bringing up a node on the network, buying a small bit of BTC into a wallet, and making a few minor purchases. Of course, if I hadn't done that, it's not likely I would have come across ETH.
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @imar2016 Just think of the tokens as another crypto-currency created on the ETH blockchain. The fact that it's in your Mist wallet should tell you something.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    @imar2016 In the Standard Token contract, there is a function to 'approve' third-party withdrawals and this is the mechanism by which the exchanges will trade tokens. When you place an order on the exchange you approve that exchange to withdraw the amount in your order. The tokens stay in your wallet and you retain their voting power until the order fills.

    So instead of 'depositing' your tokens in an exchange IOU account like other coins, you 'Approve' the exchange to take them instead when they match the order.

    I'm not sure how the exchanges will do the UI for this as currently you have to approve them from your wallet.

    Ultimately it looks like a far more secure way to trade as there's nothing sitting at the exchange to be stolen.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,290 mod
    Biodom said:

    @dlehenky
    Not sure what is your opinion about the DAO, but i was taken aback considering how much risk the DAO has vs how little reward it will collect in the best circumstances. it looks more and more like a kickstarter to me, NOT a VC fund equivalent.
    DAO will own no part of slock.it or sharing network. It would be entitled to a small percentage of sharing network revenue (like 1%). So, basically DAO pays 100%, owns 0% and gets 1% of revenue.
    For those who might be interested in details, read @s8c posts on daohub forum.
    I might still invest some as a pure short-term speculation, but as far as business venture, this cannot work as currently stated, in my opinion

    @biodom, consider how much you own of a Kickstarter campaign. The DAO will intrinsically own at least the Universal Sharing Network fees. The potential yearly revenue of the USN is in the billions, gauged by AirBnB revenue alone which charges some 30% fees and AirBnB doesn't host an energy market like the USN can.

    The DAO token holders still have to make directed business decisions, like hiring a marketing company/contractor to promote the USN and it's products and it's my fear that token holders will think of the DAO as simply a bucket-o-money to throw at any shit proposal that comes along. In my mind the DAO can only be really successful if it keeps a vertical focus on the USN.
  • bbcoinbbcoin Member Posts: 377 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    I am very sceptical about The DAO for many reasons. Some of them are:

    - Terms say you waive all your rights. Basically they push the responsibility to the investor in case of failure.
    - Vitalik presented during the last meetup in front of one of the DAO guys how you can invest 51% in the DAO and then vote as you like including creating a DAO saying 'take over all the money' and vote yes with 51%
    - It's made to profit the Slock.it guys. As simple as that. They probably already have an agreement with the big guys to vote yes for their proposal. They get all the money and in return they only give 1% keeping the ownership of the company.

    If we assume the current 30mln was invested by 300000 users buying $100 worth of tokens.

    It means even if Slock.it makes 1mln profit * 0.01 = 10000 / 300000 users and you get 3 cents.

    Shit deal if you ask me.


    Oh and of course The DAO is based on ETH which means as soon as people stop buing ETH to get DAO tokens, price will fall which means You will lose part of your investment as soon as DAO opens it's doors.

    Not to mention that you can't control your investment like they say. As soon as majority of the community votes yes for something it takes a cut from your stash. To avoid you'd have to create your own DAO within DAO and hide your money in there. Basically you will be forced to praticipate in projects you don't want to unless you manage to hide your stash somehow.
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @bbcoin I could be wrong, but I don't believe the slock.it proposal actually gets voted on by the DAO until the funding is over; the DAO doesn't have to accept it as is.

    As far as rights go, what rights do you have if you buy stock in a company? The risk always seems to be with the investor, not those receiving the investment. Just sayin'.
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