If current difficulty growth CAGR stays the same those investing today will never breakeven

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  • adasebadaseb Member Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭
    Yeah thats pretty low. My 280x pull around 180watts when they are undervolted and run at 21MH/s.
  • crsminercrsminer Member Posts: 75
    edited April 2016

    My 390 is doing [email protected], OC 1150/1500.
    And 290 - [email protected], OC 100/1500
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    verjic said:

    @work, No way you get 31,5 mhs at 180 watts! R9 390 have this hashrate at ~ 270-280 watts and you want to say that 290 can use only 180 watts?

    That's definitely what my sapphire R9 290 reference design cards run at. Modified BIOSes of course.
  • retherrether Member Posts: 258 ✭✭
    Marvell9 said:

    Marvell9 said:

    Same thing happend when the 750s came performance/watt always wins in the long run because if an inifficent card is profitable those will be kicked out of the farms first.

    @Marvell9, the question here being what is 'the long run'. The 750's even if they weren't crippled and you could hash at 9MH/s were still going to take >18 months to win out over power guzzling huge hashing 7990's. With profits as they are (even though dwindling) massive hash power far outweighs the considerations of energy costs for the blocks they get now, not for the dwindling future. Whereas the maxwells can only be at an advantage when difficulty is too high really both with.
    nah the gtx 970s hash for 22mhs non OC for around 150 watts .14 efficency vs a 390 or 390x which is 28.5/280-300 watts around .09 effciency thats a huge difference
    If everything remained static this would be important but with constant difficulty increases the ability to "frontload" as much hashing power as possible will usually win out.
  • blueboxbluebox Member Posts: 181 ✭✭
    Thread's devolved into card spec/rate talk, which is how most threads die in their last moments on earth... :D
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    @Bluebox power efficiency is very on-topic here. It matters significantly for how long you can run your cards before they become unprofitable. Your comment, however, contributes nothing...
  • rdnkjdirdnkjdi Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
    edited April 2016
    I'm about to set some 390's up. There's a BIG difference between 220W estimate and 320W. I'm really curious to see what it is and what underclocking does. @work - care to share what you did with the firmware? I vaguely remember back in litecoin mining days flashing cards to firmware from a different vendor. Wonder if there's something I can do with my 390's
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    @rdnkjdi I took stilt's mining BIOS and further modified voltage settings before flashing. This was well over a year ago that I put this firmware on the cards.
  • blueboxbluebox Member Posts: 181 ✭✭
    @work Sorry, I didn't see "power efficiency" listed in the heading like you did, my apologies:
    "If current difficulty growth CAGR stays the same those investing today will never breakeven"
    work said:

    @Marvwll9 My R9 290s put out up to 31.5MH/s at ~180 watts.... I have a hard time believing 390s are crazy less efficient at ethash since it is the same.chip.

    work said:

    verjic said:

    @work, No way you get 31,5 mhs at 180 watts! R9 390 have this hashrate at ~ 270-280 watts and you want to say that 290 can use only 180 watts?

    That's definitely what my sapphire R9 290 reference design cards run at. Modified BIOSes of course.
    Make of the thread what you wish, but there's plenty of other places for it - like almost all of the others. I began to think the forum was starting to address a real issue/concern I've also had for a while, but now you're talking electronics again (which contribute nothing here).

    "...forest for the trees". Later 'tater.
  • Marvell9Marvell9 Member Posts: 593 ✭✭✭
    verjic said:

    @work, No way you get 31,5 mhs at 180 watts! R9 390 have this hashrate at ~ 270-280 watts and you want to say that 290 can use only 180 watts?

    Yeah he's full of it no way you get 30mhs for under 200watts on a 290 he's probably looking at what gpu z says not the meter from the wall
  • thesmokingmanthesmokingman Member Posts: 152 ✭✭
    Just thought about something. There's no lack of GPUs as its been brought up in this thread, but what about a possible shortage in motherboards if the latest gen is crap. That would mean everyone is buying last gen/LGA1150 boards and AMD AM3. Surely there not as plentiful as GPUS are. The H97 Anniv are getting more expensive and I'm not sure how many H81 BTC Pro boards are around. What if the thing that slows down farm expansions is a shortage in motherboards and not GPUs?

    I have MSI and Gigabyte z97 boards and I'm constantly having to reboot them due to freezes/lock ups, but my ASUS boards run like champs...
  • rdnkjdirdnkjdi Member Posts: 135 ✭✭
    work said:

    @rdnkjdi I took stilt's mining BIOS and further modified voltage settings before flashing. This was well over a year ago that I put this firmware on the cards.

    Awesome. Thank you ... I'm gonna see if I can get it on a 390
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    @Marvell9 Whatever you say, buddy... I definitely know what I'm talking about, while you're just blowing smoke. You're right at least that you won't get under 200watts on a stock 290 BIOS. I also don't run stock BIOS...

    @bluebox power efficiency directly relates to "breakeven" in the thread title, because better power efficiency means a wider power to profit margin, and along with cheaper power, being more power efficient will let you mine for longer before it becomes unprofitable.

    @thesmokingman if H81 BTC and H97 Anniversary boards get hard to buy, there are plenty of other options that can support 4-6 GPUs. The main benefit of the H81 BTC Pro board was that it was supposed to be cheap. When that isn't the case, you're often just as well off with a different board anyway.
  • dlehenkydlehenky Member Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭✭
    @work What other MBs support 6 GPUs? You know more about what's out there than I do. I haven't really come across any, other than these 2 Asrocks.
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    @dlhenky off the top of my head, Gigabyte UD7, a few other asrock boards, MSI 990FXA-GD65, MSI 990FXA-GD80, MSI Z77A-GD65 (can actually run 7), etc. I'm not very up-to-date on current offerings (most of my info is from 2013/2014), but I'm sure there are a bunch of newer boards capable of 6 cards out there too.
  • verjicverjic Member Posts: 143
    @dlehenky I'm from Romania and we have on the Market Asrock B85 Anniversary with 6 pci-e slots. It looks the same as H81 BTC. Price is 70 Euro new from store.
  • ddxxbbddxxbb Member Posts: 18
    most people don't understand how a cryptocurrency difficulty work, they rush buying more gpu's and then they end up losing their money.
  • dittoditto Member Posts: 139 ✭✭
    ddxxbb said:

    most people don't understand how a cryptocurrency difficulty work, they rush buying more gpu's and then they end up losing their money.

    Most people also don't know it isn't just about difficulty that matters. smh.

    Difficulty can go up and down, along with price.

    It isn't as simple as the OP tries to make it.
  • LagniappeLagniappe Dirty SouthMember Posts: 136 ✭✭
    ddxxbb said:

    most people don't understand how a cryptocurrency difficulty work, they rush buying more gpu's and then they end up losing their money.

    Most people just save their money. The few that take the chances here and there, some win and some lose. But you'll never have a chance at serious money if you don't take that chance. The variable that defines what makes or breaks the investment is how stupid it is. I remember as a kid, my neighborhood buddies dad invested in a treasure hunt. I'm not kidding.
  • ilia7777ilia7777 Member Posts: 113
    Difficulty is very simple concept it gets updated once every X blocks based on the speed it took for the network do discover recent blocks. 100% correlation to hashing power of the entire network.

    Its all based on combinations your GPU has to go through which is always the power of two. Every bit could be either one or zero. Try to imagine what is 2 in a power of 100 combinations for example. If you can answer a simple question how many combinations are there for 8 bit (1 byte) number u should be able to understand how it works.

    When target needs to be lower than 2 in the power of say 50 that means that all the numbers above 2 in the power of 50 are wrong. How many of those are there? 2 in the power of 50. And then there have to be 32 leading zeros. So GPU has to go through 2 in the power of 82 combinations to find the proper block number.
  • ilia7777ilia7777 Member Posts: 113
    Sorry i meant to say not higher but that there 2 in the power of 50 numbers higher.
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    ilia7777 said:

    So GPU has to go through 2 in the power of 82 combinations to find the proper block number.

    Missing an "on average, statistically" there. And it's called a nonce not block number.
  • ilia7777ilia7777 Member Posts: 113
    This was just an example. I was talking about the maximum number of combinations not average. If you call hash function 2 in the power of 32 times it is guaranteed to get an number with 32 leading zeros for example.
  • o0ragman0oo0ragman0o Member, Moderator Posts: 1,291 mod
    @ilia7777 What are you calling 'hash function 2 in the power of x'? Do you just mean running ethash 2**32 times?
  • oslakoslak Member Posts: 191
    edited April 2016
    @ilia7777 Since you mentioned the difficulty, would you mind to explain it from the start. First, how is block design created? In bitcoin I understand that these blocks are encrypted with sha256 algo, litecoin with scrypt algo and so on but how are these blocks created before getting encrypted?

    What theorem's did they use to prove that these blocks exist and the concept of halving for the case of bitcoin?

    Last is how do they determine the number of blocks? Should it be the order of the setwise stabilizer?

    Just want to dig deeper(Bill) for my understanding and for other fish as well. thanks
  • ddxxbbddxxbb Member Posts: 18
    price is what drive's the difficulty, when price is pumped at the exchange suddenly mining become's profitable and more people add more hashing power to the network.. then when price falls down difficulty follows.
    Also when you do some calculations to build a new rig it's only for now at the current state of the network and price, in few day's everything change's ! you can't predict how the market price & diffculty will behave.
  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    ilia7777 said:

    This was just an example. I was talking about the maximum number of combinations not average. If you call hash function 2 in the power of 32 times it is guaranteed to get an number with 32 leading zeros for example.

    That isn't true... it's perfectly possible that a chunk of work has no nonce that provides a valid solution.
  • shawn_Blah_Blahshawn_Blah_Blah Member Posts: 57
    edited April 2016
    It's getting tougher being a hard headed, shit talking, womenizing, hash spitting badass miner. Maybe this body is getting to old for this game, always a youngin lookin to take an old dog out. Such is the life I chose, no one said crypto was easy.

    Was pulling in a little over a 100.00 a day now down to like 72.00 bucks, My monthly power bill was 265.00! Getting hard out here, that's with a few 750ti rigs mining nichehash (I have other rigs on ethereum)and covering the power cost. Not sure how I'm supposed to live off this anymore. Hard times ahead my friends,
  • adasebadaseb Member Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Didn't think you can mine ETH with 750ti

    Plus you really shouldn't complain. There are many people who bought Antminer S7 which have like a 6-9 month ROI and use crazy amount of electricity and are very loud.

  • workwork Member Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭✭
    @shawn_Blah_Blah that is still an insane profit margin over power cost... It will remain an insane profit margin even at $25/day incoming
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