GTX1070 Linux installation and mining clue (Goodbye AMD, Welcome NVidia for miners)

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Comments

  • agenteagente Posts: 3Member
    Are you going to try to lowering voltage?
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    Not sure how a $450 GTX 1070 could ever be more profitable then a $190 R9 290... That would be one hell of a power consumption difference and high power cost to make up that $260 difference.

    Say 150W for the GTX 1070 and 300W for the R9 290 (went with TDP just because 150/300 are nice numbers, which should be on the high side for optimized mining). So presuming a 150Watt difference, that's 3.6KWh/day or 1314KWh/year. For me, that's under $110/year. And remember that's probably exaggerated a lot - my 290s don't run anywhere near 300watts, and the GTX1070 to R9290 power ratio is probably a lot closer then 1:2.

    Now, if power consumption/heat matters a lot to you, compare the RX 480 and the GTX1070. The 480 comes out ahead and the GTX1070 could never catch it as far as I can see.

    Very curious how much a 6x 1070 rig is pulling from the wall.
  • thesmokingmanthesmokingman Posts: 152Member ✭✭
    @work - To me it's a combination of a few things. The GTX 1070 hashes at 31Mhs for less power than the AMD offerings. So I'm not only saving money power wise, but I'm earning more as well. The difference here can be argued as negligible, but then you also have to factor in re-sell value. When everyone starts dumping those r9 290s et al AMD cards on the market, it's going to naturally drive down the price since the market is so saturated. Currently the majority of gamers run Nvidia cards, (new analysis needs to be conducted since the new card releases) so to me that equates to a higher resale value and a increased return on my money. Similar to why some farm owners invested in r9 Nanos over other offerings.

    Plus I'm a believer in not putting all my eggs in one basket, so running a multi gigahash farm utilizing a single card manufacturer just seems wrong lol...I work on the largest Enterprise Network in North America, and we don't use the same hardware manufacturer for everything for similar reasons.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    @thesmokingman I get >32MH/s from R9 290s with <180W/card.<br />
    I'd say the chances of a $450 card quickly depreciating $150 is pretty good; chances of a $190 card depreciating $150 in the same time span is pretty much non-existent. So, yes, it might be a bit easier to resell your nvidia cards to gamers, but I don't think the resale is going to be better overall.

    Don't get me wrong, variety is good, and I've certainly built some rigs that didn't have the most cost effective cards. But, I just can't see the 1070 as cost efficient for mining. I could see a pair in SLI for my gaming/workstation computer and mine on the side.

    For me, I'm building some 480 rigs and then will probably hold out until we see what the 490 has in store.
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    work said:

    Not sure how a $450 GTX 1070 could ever be more profitable then a $190 R9 290...

    Well let's do some math here...
    Cost of 1070 = 560€
    Cost of R9 290 = Not available in your country (old card, not in stock, won't buy used cards)
    Find the cheapest card on amazon.co.uk that ships to your country = 285£ = 335€.
    Add 95£ shipping cost = 111€.
    Add 24% VAT = 107€.
    Cost of R9 290 = 553€

    Profit from 1070 in 12 months = 648€
    Profit from R9 290 in 12months = 477€
    (Using the 150/300W 1ETH = 10.55, cryptocompare calculator)

    Total profit from 1070 = 88€
    Total profit from R9 290 = -76€

    And if we speculate and take into consideration that PoS happens 12 months from now and you want to stop mining (atleast for the time being):

    Re-sale value of 1070 = 450€
    Re-sale value of R9 290 = 50€

    Total profit from 1070 = 538€
    Total profit from R9 290 = -26€

    And there you have it, that's how it could ever be more profitable.
    (And for the RX 480, using the same metrics, 140€ or 290€ with re-sale taken into account.)
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    agente said:

    Are you going to try to lowering voltage?

    I don't think it's really possible with Pascals without a rom mod, they have these built-in throttling settings that curve the voltage with the core clock.
    So far i haven't been able to lower the voltage on Linux, as the card doesn't have the GPUCurrentVoltage setting on nvidia-settings and on Windows Afterburner only gives you % from 0-100, no undervolting option.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    Smokyish said:


    Well let's do some math here...
    Cost of 1070 = 560€
    Cost of R9 290 = Not available in your country (old card, not in stock, won't buy used cards)
    Find the cheapest card on amazon.co.uk that ships to your country = 285£ = 335€.
    Add 95£ shipping cost = 111€.
    Add 24% VAT = 107€.
    Cost of R9 290 = 553€
    [...]

    Those numbers are extremely non-sense. For starters, if you can still get R9 290s (which I, and most other people can), they cost ~170€ including free shipping. Cost of a R9 290 = <200€ ...<br />
    Try again. Basing this math on the two cards costing the same is ridiculous. And I can't figure out how the heck you got those numbers for a 480... That makes absolutely 0 sense.

    I also clearly said that 300/150W numbers were skewed massively in favor of the 1070, and in reality, their power consumption won't be anywhere near that much different after optimization.

    If you run real numbers from actual usage, the R9 290s come out ahead for me every way I crunch it.
    Smokyish said:


    Re-sale value of 1070 = 450€
    Re-sale value of R9 290 = 50€

    Why are you purposefully skewing the numbers in favor of your argument? I'll be blown away if you can't get 100€ for a 290, and equally blown away if you could get over 400€ for a 1070 that's spent a year mining.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @Smokyish an R9 290 should cost less then 200€ if know where to buy them. And I'm not talking used cards.

    Those numbers you just posted are about as full of bullshit as I can imagine. Every comparison you used was heavily skewed in favor of the 1070, and looks far from reality. I used 150/300W because I was purposefully favoring the card I was arguing against to make the argument stronger. You using those numbers makes your math just completely flawed (since in reality, the wattage difference after optimization is going to be pretty small - by the time you undervolt and optimize a 290, I bet it'll have a higher hashrate and nearly the same wattage as a 1070). Your resale numbers are also ridiculous - if you can't get 100€ for a used R9 290, I would be shocked. Similarly, I'd be thinking less then 400€ for a used 1070 that's spent a year mining.

    Every way I run the numbers, I can't see how a 1070 ever comes out ahead. And that profitability total a 480 looks way off.
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    @work I know i can get a 290 for less than 530€, but that wasn't the point and you know it. Not everyone lives in USA/NA and prices etc vary from your point of view, it should be pretty clear that those numbers weren't minimum (if you know how to look, sheesh, you think i wanna spend hours looking for data for a post for a card i am not actually planning to buy and do take into consideration that shipping fees ranging 30-50€ for such items isn't abnormal, and remember to add the 24% to all prices, that is import tax, so price+shipping+24% and also remember that for all the 3-10 days it takes to ship the item, you aren't mining, where as you can have item's delivered in 1 day within the country) or optimized consumption, we don't even have any real optimization available for the Pascals yet.

    Unless you still don't get it, you can't generalize something like that, because people live in different places, have different prices and people have personal preferences.
    As @thesmokingman said, gamers prefer Nvidia cards, and that's why you can't get much from selling a over 3 year old card (i said 50€ one year from NOW, so almost 4 year old card) especially here, a small country with a small market for used old cards (yes, i can sell on Ebay, but with the postal fees, i don't think it would get that much attention).

    If you don't believe my numbers for a 480, go to https://www.cryptocompare.com/mining/calculator/eth input 24MH/s, 200w, 0.11$ electricity cost, you'll get ~420usd = 379€, a cheapest 480 (XFX 8GB no 4GB available yet) is 279€, then calculate 379-279...

    You must really love those 290's if it's that hard for you to believe that there might be even a slight possibility, that somewhere in the world they actually might not be as a good option as a 1070 to get.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @Smokyish case in point right there... a 480 can do 28MH/s at under 150W at the wall. People have already managed higher hashrates with less wattage too. 24MH/s at 200W is nothing but nonsense.

    4GB cards have been available, you just had to be watching for them. People around the world snagged them.

    It's not about believing, nor love of 290s. I'd say calling the 290 a 3 year old card is a bit disingenuous. The Hawaii chipset is only really 1 generation old.
    Post edited by work on
  • sennevbsennevb Posts: 103Member
    @kruisdraad you are running stable now? at what speed?
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    @work Yes, i am planning on getting some 480's next, but waiting to hear from people from the custom cards as the ref cards seem to have been having their share of temp issues, which is quite a important factor to me.

    I am actively following the two biggest component retailers here, but neither have gotten any 4GB cards yet, most likely because of so small market share that importers aren't getting any.
  • AmphAmph Posts: 106Member
    edited July 2016
    work said:

    @thesmokingman I get >32MH/s from R9 290s with <180W/card.<br />
    I'd say the chances of a $450 card quickly depreciating $150 is pretty good; chances of a $190 card depreciating $150 in the same time span is pretty much non-existent. So, yes, it might be a bit easier to resell your nvidia cards to gamers, but I don't think the resale is going to be better overall.

    Don't get me wrong, variety is good, and I've certainly built some rigs that didn't have the most cost effective cards. But, I just can't see the 1070 as cost efficient for mining. I could see a pair in SLI for my gaming/workstation computer and mine on the side.

    For me, I'm building some 480 rigs and then will probably hold out until we see what the 490 has in store.

    uh are you joking, how a $450 card that was recently released(1 month) will depreciate to $150? you remember that the 970 is still sold at $250 after TWO year of its release right?

    also i want the proof that your 290 can do 180w 32MH, because last time i checked it was 27MH 180, and before that it was 25 180, so someone is posting bullshit here
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @Amph again, that statement was intended for comparison. Change it to $100 if that's more relevant to your local market, and what I was saying it still the same.

    That $150 figure pretty much follows my experience with GPU resale outside of mining booms tho. Keep in mind you can't look at resale on GPUs right now as any sort of gauge of what it will be like when everyone is dumping used GPUs on the market. I know quite a few people that sold cards at big discounts at the end of scrypt GPU mining, e.g. $400 cards for $150 that were around a year old and still under warranty.

    An R9 290 can do over 34MH/s if you push it (e.g. 1150mhz core). There's plenty of info and posts around about these cards. 27MH/s is savagely low for a 290 (my worst performer, which has serious over heating problems and is actually down-clocked, does 26MH/s).
  • thesmokingmanthesmokingman Posts: 152Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @work - How much power and heat does a r9 290 utilize to push out the 34MHs figure?

    I have x6 r9 290s reference with a -100mv on DPM 0-7 states and the highest I can push them is 170~175Mhs 1050/1000. They run in the mid 70s temp wise and use over 200 watts each at 29Mhs, so I can only imagine what x6 cards clocked to 34Mhs would produce. I also think you are missing the point on the resale value still. You can't look at resale on GPUs right now for AMD, but that doesn't carry the same for Nvidia cards for the simple fact that most farm owners purchase AMD cards over Nvidia cards. So when the dump begins, it's the AMD market that will tank not the Nvidia market as the majority of card sales will be AMD based. It's the AMD market right now that's altered due to the mining rush not the Nvidia market, so there's no equilibrium that needs to be reached before buyers buy up stock.

    Just with all things though people have their own thoughts and considerations on things and what constitutes a waste or not. I feel confident however that placed in a race that a x6 1070 Nvidia card rig would out ROI AMD cards as it's the proverbial tortoise and the hare race. AMD is the hare and Nvidia is the tortoise.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @thesmokingman a flooded used GPU market is a flooded market. Who's going to buy an nvidia card for $400 when a somewhat comparable AMD is available for $150 used? Nobody. Used Nvidia cards sunk in price after scrypt mining just as much as AMD cards did. Many gamers might prefer nvidia, but not by that much.

    Do you run Stilt's BIOS to bring down the power a bit more? Not sure about 34MH power consumption; I don't run my cards there just for longevity, and I don't recall what I measured when I was trying it.
  • AmphAmph Posts: 106Member
    edited July 2016
    work said:

    @Amph again, that statement was intended for comparison. Change it to $100 if that's more relevant to your local market, and what I was saying it still the same.

    That $150 figure pretty much follows my experience with GPU resale outside of mining booms tho. Keep in mind you can't look at resale on GPUs right now as any sort of gauge of what it will be like when everyone is dumping used GPUs on the market. I know quite a few people that sold cards at big discounts at the end of scrypt GPU mining, e.g. $400 cards for $150 that were around a year old and still under warranty.

    An R9 290 can do over 34MH/s if you push it (e.g. 1150mhz core). There's plenty of info and posts around about these cards. 27MH/s is savagely low for a 290 (my worst performer, which has serious over heating problems and is actually down-clocked, does 26MH/s).

    no it's not true, it's not possible for a brand new card to be worth only 1/3 of its original value after 1 year of release, in fact like i said the 970 is still sold at half of its original price at release, and this after TWO years

    and btw you sell to gamers not miners...but amd are not seen well for gaming, so you will be stuck with your 290 forever....

    for the 290 i was not talking about the mere hashrate, but about the hash/watt, it's easy to reach high hash when you consume 300 watt, not impressive at all...
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    And as we don't know what algos will be profitable after PoW or even within 12months, Nvidia seems to fare better than AMD on non-memory heavy algos, like Sia:

    Siacoin Go Pool miner hashrate:
    – GTX 1080 – 1945 MHS
    – GTX 1070 – 1466 MHS
    – GTX 980 Ti – 1220 MHS
    – GTX 970 – 803 MHS
    – GTX 950 – 385 MHS
    – GTX 750 Ti – 301 MHS
    – RX 480 – 872 MHS
    – R9 280X – 849 MHS
    – R9 290x – 1116 MHS

    Source
  • AmphAmph Posts: 106Member
    in sia a 1070 can do more than 1466, those rate are from cuda 7.5 not cuda 8, there is a comparison reporting 2300 for a 1080 with oc, so a 1070 with oc should reach 1800-2G
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    @Amph Yes, but they show the ballapark figures.
    1070 can do 1600MH/s well, but going higher causes the temps to rise a lot, so that seems to be the sweetspot.
  • MoarHashMoarHash Posts: 13Member
    edited July 2016
    Amph said:

    in sia a 1070 can do more than 1466, those rate are from cuda 7.5 not cuda 8, there is a comparison reporting 2300 for a 1080 with oc, so a 1070 with oc should reach 1800-2G

    I'm getting around 1500Mh/s with my 1070 for sia w/ core +100 and mem +200

    How is 1800Mh/s possible?
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    MoarHash said:

    Amph said:

    in sia a 1070 can do more than 1466, those rate are from cuda 7.5 not cuda 8, there is a comparison reporting 2300 for a 1080 with oc, so a 1070 with oc should reach 1800-2G

    I'm getting around 1500Mh/s with my 1070 for sia w/ core +100 and mem +200

    How is 1800Mh/s possible?
    As Sia isn't memory heavy like Eth, it doesn't actually use your mem at all really, you can set your mem clock to -2000.
    As i said earlier, you can easily pull 1650MH/s that is stable and keeps temp <80C, but that's already pulling 200w, so even if you try to push to 1800MH/s, it will pull so much energy that not even worth attempting to get that rate.
  • adasebadaseb Posts: 1,043Member ✭✭✭
    Its basically next to impossible to predict what a GPU will be worth in the future.
    @work and I were both around when the Litecoin bubble burst and you won't believe how difficult it was selling GPUs.

    On craigslists there would be dozens of people, reposting everyday that they have about 20-30 GPUs for sale.

    Same with eBay. You would see photos of GPU boxes stacked on top of each other from a few hundred sellers. And nobody was buying.

    GPUs that were once $400 were selling for $150 about 3 months later. Which is 90 days. Not 2 years like you guys are predicting.

    Nvidia GPUs which were never mined with also suffered because why buy an overpriced 760 (or whatever was out back then) when you can get a shiny R9 290 for a 3rd of the price.

    One of the reasons for the huge price crash was because many buyers maxed out their credit cards on Newegg buying all those GPUs and they needed money fast to pay off their bills.



  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    adaseb said:


    On craigslists there would be dozens of people, reposting everyday that they have about 20-30 GPUs for sale.

    And as me and others have tried to convey, different countries, different markets.

    At this moment, for my country, craigslist lists one item in the whole country on Computer Parts category, a 22" inch monitor, Computers lists 1 Macbook Pro and 1 iMac. A local auction website has 332 graphics cards listed at the moment, one used R9 290 starting at 120€ and a 290x buy-it-now for 230€.
    There's propably under 100 ethereum miners in the whole country, so the local market wouldn't be that flooded if a similar bubble burst happened so it would not affect people here in a similar way as it would for you.

    In any market, i still think that a custom 1070 vs ref 480 would be more attractive option for most gamers, and thus would find a buyer more easily in a flooded market, but this is pure speculation and as you said, it is impossible to predict how these things would play out :) But i'll take your word for it that selling would be difficult at such a time.
  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @adaseb exactly! That's okay tho, if people think they'll sell their used GPUs close to retail, they'll get a reality check soon enough. In the litecoin era, I doubt there was anywhere in the world not flooded by GPUs.

    @smokyish sounds like a small market. I would think that even a few miners would rapidly flood that market and it would be next to impossible to sell GPUs at any price, let alone close to retail.

    Time will tell, sure. But as adaseb points out, some of us have seen this before.
  • AmphAmph Posts: 106Member
    adaseb said:

    Its basically next to impossible to predict what a GPU will be worth in the future.
    @work and I were both around when the Litecoin bubble burst and you won't believe how difficult it was selling GPUs.

    On craigslists there would be dozens of people, reposting everyday that they have about 20-30 GPUs for sale.

    Same with eBay. You would see photos of GPU boxes stacked on top of each other from a few hundred sellers. And nobody was buying.

    GPUs that were once $400 were selling for $150 about 3 months later. Which is 90 days. Not 2 years like you guys are predicting.

    Nvidia GPUs which were never mined with also suffered because why buy an overpriced 760 (or whatever was out back then) when you can get a shiny R9 290 for a 3rd of the price.

    One of the reasons for the huge price crash was because many buyers maxed out their credit cards on Newegg buying all those GPUs and they needed money fast to pay off their bills.




    not true, i just sold my 970 for 220 euro each after i bought them for 240, i highly doubt that a new card like a 1070 will be worthless in few months, like i've said you sell to gamers not other miners

    gamers evaluate more your precious gpu

  • workwork Posts: 2,075Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @Amph you're talking about during a mining boom!!!! Of course used GPUs are worth close to retail right now. I think you're missing the entire point... It's like you didn't even read adaseb's post.
  • adasebadaseb Posts: 1,043Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    You don't seem to understand basic supply and demand.

    The 970 came out after the Litecoin bust. The supply and demand was leveled out at the time.

    Right now there is more demand for GPUs and that's why some used old 7950 are still selling for $120USD and 480/1070 are sold out in stores.

    If the hard fork fails in 3 days and 250,000 GPUs are added to eBay , Craigslist, Kijiji, etc then it will be a different story.

    And it doesn't make a difference whether a "gamer" or "miner" buys your GPUs. A gamer will buy whatever is the best value for them.

    Most gamers these days aren't PC gamers they are console gamers. The market isn't large enough to absorb this massive selling in such a short time. If you read the market reports for Nvidia and AMD GPU sales, it declines every single year because gamers are switching to consoles like PS4 and Xbox 1.

    Think about it this way

    If you buy a $190 R9 290 the most you can lose is $190
    If you buy a $450 Nvidia 1070 the most you can lose is $450
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    How can AMD sales decline from console gaming, both PS4 and XB1 use AMD GPUs? :smiley:

    Yes, yes, we're talking about PC GPU's, it was a joke :tongue:
  • SmokyishSmokyish Posts: 203Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    FYI Nvidia Linux users, the new 367.35 Linux driver seems to remove over/underclocking capability in nvidia-settings, works fine on 367.27, so suggest staying on that atleast for now.
    Post edited by Smokyish on
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